It is a mid-line ZTR in the Deere lineup and it will last you a long time. It helps a lot to help you out. Thanks in advance for your response! Hi Joe, I want to start off and say Im not picking on you this comment has to do with the industry as a whole. There are 15-20 trees/plants and 3 buildings (home, garage, shed) to mow around. I havent been able to see much on the cut quality of the apex and if its worth the extra $1000. Im not sure if Havener/Bradley would be buying decks and frames from Schiller/Bob Cat but Ill check next time I talk to them. I would never pay more for a Kawasaki FR than I would for a Kohler 7000. Also when it comes to brands, I see a lot of high praise here for Ariens Ikon. Stepping up from there is the Ariens / Gravely APEX / ZT-HD 52. It could be sent here to pick up, but this location isnt open on Saturdays at all which means Id have to take time off from a new job to pick it up. 1. Quick question for you. With that said, which of these mowers or maybe one I didnt mention that is on your mind, that you would recommend? Just not sure I need that much but also dont want to deal with issues after I buy it!! Thanks a mil. Added to this difference, the seats are much higher on the Titan in comparison to the Timecutter, which is excellent if you spend long hours gliding through grasslands. I have seen some concern about the non-serviceable transmission on this model. The dealer I prefer carries both Toro and Ariens, so that is not a factor. If the model number starts with 247 it was made by MTD 917 it was made by Husqvarna. Fab 22.5 HP V-Twin Gas Zero-Turn Riding Mower with Smart Speed, Agri-Fab 44 in. For example, I like my local Toro Dealer a lot. Yes, I know pretty anal. The deck sticks out farther to the left on this one and with the larger 20-inch rear tires its great for trimming. The second brand is Country Clipper. Just the Toro has that extra feature. Most cost $8000 and up. A lot of people complain about how the 42-inch deck on the Ariens doesnt stick out very far making it hard to trim around trees, etc. Best for 1/4 to 3/4 acre. Hi Laurrelle, The Walker is one of the best for hills. Its a nice mower but I have been having issues with cut quality. It cuts very well and its biggest feature for you is you can get an optional powered bagger. If its not cutting well the most likely cause is the deck is not level. 4. It will give you 2 3 x the life with less breakdowns and problems. Whats your thought on the John Deere Z355E? The price is $5k which is within my budget and about what I would probably spend on a new 60 mower. Yes, there are after-market manufacturers that make pull behind leaf vacs but that doesnt mean you should be putting one behind your zero-turn. First, you're looking at a Toro engine vs. a Kohler Courage engine. Spent the last couple months searching for a ZTR. Hi Rob, All of the current name-brand zero-turns are a lot easier to drive than the models made 20 years ago. (I grew up with International Harvester tractors so the Reb/Black paint scheme appeals to me too!). I am looking at Scag Liberty z 48 and Bobcat ZT2000 48, Both look fairly similar. The Boulevard is one of the best-built residential mowers on the market. 4. Time to decide, I have narrowed my search down to two. Even the engines are the same. The $2k difference from high to low seems like a lot but the dealer was pushing the $5100 one. Both are heavier duty than the ZT2, have better decks that will cut better and faster, however the Apex is only a few hundred more so is the best choice in my opinion. Well, Ive found two brands that work great! Maybe Wowtac? If you really want serviceable transmissions Ariens sells the Gravely ZT XL. It is a pretty smooth lawn, with about 8 trees and a lot of bed lines to cut along in the front half of the lawn. The Z930M is the most popular John Deere mower for commercial operators. The APEX is a heavy-duty mower and I strongly feel it can handle most any lawn. Cub Cadet has no plans to discontinue their Z-Force or Pro steering wheel models. When we need parts and service, I imagine we may end up going to Tractor Supply well see. A good size for snow blowers and push mowers. I am looking at zero turns and I feel like I can spend $3,000 or less and get a great mower. I am considering an upgrade to a zero turn and would appreciate your input. 7. Hi David, Both mulch well with the optional bolt-in mulching kits. The rest of the mowers are all great choices but if you have the Walker Model R on your list and your budget can handle it the Model R is the way to go. Regarding the gator blades, I have heard opinions that they should not be used with mulching kits. The 2019 JD Z740 and the 2019 Exmark Radius X. I cut 2+ acres with a some what rough ( lack of rolling the last two years ), A medium incline for a drain field. They are both comfortable to ride . Hey Paul! So, instead of wrecking the steel frame and rendering the mower unsafe for use until fully repaired, the aluminum hubs will absorb the shock and the damage which is highly economical to fix in comparison to repairing a wounded 10-gauge steel frame. None of those manufacturers will extend your ZTRs warranty in case your mower breaks using their leaf vac. Im leaning towards the MyRides at this point. Oh, Im 62, in reasonable shape, dont mind the exercisein fact, kinda keeps the joints lubricated (smile). The Toro and the Ariens will both mow your entire 2 acres in less than an hour so you can always just mow it all every week . Just wanted to mention a few things the Apex is currently $300 off, making it a very good deal. Since our current mower is 46 inch deck we would like a slightly larger deck, I think we are leaning towards the 52 inch deck size. Zero-turn Steering Wheel. They revised it and its now called the EDGE. Instead, they shred the grass into little cotton balls That leave a mess on your lawn. Hi T. Dan, Feel free to stop by anytime and tell us how the Jonsered is working out. I did note that it was probably under-powered because the cutting deck would stop cutting while I was driving up the hill (and the motor seemed to struggle). The only time I lift them up is if Im off using it to pull a cart around in the timber where there may be stumps or rocks to hit. How does the Ikon xd 52 stripe. We have about an acre of lawn with a lot of pine trees, So at least Ive narrowed it down to 4 potential brands. Whats odd, the closest dealer that stocks the mower I want is 50 miles away. Thanks Paul. Its a much lighter weight mower than the Toro or Cub Cadet. Hi Paul, want your view on a commercial quality/HD zero like the Scagg Tiger II 60ish deck, grasshopper, JD etc. There are no other differences. I suggest mulching your leaves in the fall. It is one of the best engines for fuel economy and is instantly responsive to heavy loads. The JD dealers seems good and I looked at the Z700 series. Its going to be a great mower for the average suburban lawn but not for tall grass of really bumpy lawns. 9. Might be able to get an entry level pro machine for the regular price of a consumer unit though. The Toro Z20042 has a 48-inch deck, which will be better suited for larger yards. Its the latest design. Now it just keeps throwing the belt off. Same Price, How Are They Different? TodaysMower.com is a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, and we get a commission on purchases made through our links to Amazon. Thanks for all the great info here. Its not a popular brand and I dont know anyone who actually owns one meaning I dont know enough about it to tell you if its good or bad. But the Cub seems like more for the money.. Dealer did say he had a Gravely and looking back he doesnt understand why he spent so much more on it vs just getting a Cub. My second choice is either the Toro or Cub Cadet 50 inch. Seems as though your recommended ZTRs come from Big Box stores, which I prefer to purchase from a dealer. It also has the heavy-duty ZT2800 transmissions. Here is the Gravely sales page: Gravely Mow The Distance Sale. If you go lap-bar I STRONGLY suggest that you demo it on your yard to see if the mower will hold on your slope. You still get the 10-gauge fabricated deck and reinforced leading edges across the entire front of the deck to protect against minor impacts and abrasions. I know the Pro Z might be a little much for a residential mower but Im willing to pay $1400 more for the upgraded mower, providing the Kohler Motor is reliable and the transmission with charge pumps will add longer life to transmissions. Costco wont carry those items. Im not familiar with Husky but the Husqvarna decks are not as good. Im put off by the EZT hydros on the Ikon series. Hi Brad, All three have transmissions capable of mowing slopes. Hi Adam, When the Husqvarna MZ came out 10 years ago there were very few ZTRs in the high residential/entry level pro category but today there are many more that have stronger frames, better cutting decks and ride better. And with over 40 commercial brands out there it may never catch on. Operator controlled discharge chute available. The 52 Vanguard is $4800 at SLE, but it only gives you 4 more deck.. Been insightful for sure. Paul I sat on the Cub and found my right knee may hit the lap-bar when using the deck-lift peddle even though the bars adjust. Almost everyone else including Honda, Deere, Cub Cadet, Toro, etc, is getting into robotic mowers. The 50-inch model is over your budget. The Intek is the standard Briggs engine and is found in lawn tractors under $2000 and ZTRs under $3000. I have a 1 acre lot of which 80% is mowable with a lot of trees and landscaping. It has strong transmissions that will last and is one of the best residential mowers for cutting taller grass. For the few extra dollars buy the Toro or Ariens. The Ultima ZT2 will last. I have been using a Troybuilt TB30 but it slips and the drive wheel spins a lot as well the cut tends to be uneven. Contenders must have serviceable trans with decks less than 50 to possibly wiggle through a large walk gate. Hi Paul! In all seriousness, thank you for helping me cull out the Deere and the Hustler, The Bradley is probably just too much of a pipe dream considering the distance to any dealer and fear of swimming that far from shore without a life jacket. They seem comparable but I like the Hydrogear 3100 transmission on the Kubota and the John Deere Kawasaki engine. Owners never complain about grass build up under the deck. For it being called a commercial mower, it is NOT one!!!!! It has accessories for power deck lift and a mower jack for easy blade changes. Do you have any reason that you would value one over the other? Use this dealer locator page to find a dealer in your area (Country Clipper dealers). It helps keep the fuel fresh and some stabilizers also clean your carb and fuel system without messing it up. What would you suggest to best meet my needs? Hes also fairly rough on equipment, (He killed an Exmark Lazer Z in 10 years) so the Ariens Apex/Gravely can put up with his abuse. I recommend buying through an Ariens dealer instead of the big box stores. Warranty: 3 years - Available from Mowers Online UK in Gloucester. Its worth the extra $400 over the Toro has better transmissions than the Toro and cuts as well as the Ariens. Exmark radius E series 48 A cheaper belt is a cheaper belt. It is mostly level ground and what is not is easy to use a push mower. This ensures a much neater and sharper cut totally alleviating the chances of leaving stragglers behind. I also like the Gravely/Ariens in that price range. Over 142 weeks or $236.94/month over. Hi Shane, Yes, Deere has made a lot of improvements in their decks in the last 10 years. Ive spent a bunch of time reading your site over the last week as Im looking to purchase a new mower. But that just wont be possible for under $3000. Both are good engines. Its the 48 inch Bradley Stand-On. I am purchasing a zero turn mower for my husband as a surprise for his 50th birthday next year. My main concerns are maintenance, longevity, baggers/mulching. Does The PowerStack 5Ah Unleash The Beast In The DEWALT 8, DEWALT XR Power Detect 20V Reciprocating Saw DCS368 Vs Flexvolt 60v DCS389 Vs Milwaukee Fuel 2721-20, USA Made DEWALT 52-inch 9-Drawer Tool Cabinet & 8-Drawer Chest Review | DWST25294 & DWST25182, Now In Variable Speed! So, every young kid who was getting into the lawn mowing business bought the Kaw because they were cheaper. The Cub is designed with a more open engine compartment so maybe the sound will be dispersed outwards better. Ok, thank you for the clarification. (The lawn was wet both times that this happened.) (I did cut the lawn once with a 21 walk behind mower took me 2 hours and 45 minutes, and walking the hillside sideways with that mower was really hard on my knees and hips. Yes, the cart will hold 1000lbs. Hi Deb, A year ago Bobcat the skid loader company purchased Bob-Cat mowers from Schuler Industries. If they drop a name it most likely will be Poulan Pro. Both are good dependable mowers. Hi Eric, The Toro rides better the Gravely is a heavier built machine. The entirety of your lawn's features plays a huge part in selecting an agreeable riding mower, sometimes more than your personal preference does. Q: What are your thoughts about transmissions with and without charge pumps? We have John Deere, Hustler, Bad Boy, Kubota, Husqvarna, and Grasshopper dealers, as well as stores such as Lowes, Home Depot, and Tractor Supply which carry other brands. I am strongly leaning toward a DR Leaf and Lawn vac for fall and spring clean up and am concerned with weight of that being pulled by the mower. I would like to get something better preferably a zero turn to handle the flower beds but I am open to any suggestion you might have. The Confidant Series has the same commercial quality as the old Command Pro engines. The 75746 also comes with the U.S.A.-made Kohler engine. I would like your thoughts on my situation if you will, I live in rural eastern NC where the soil tends to have a lot of clay and its necessary to have drainage ditches for storm runoff. This is how I make money to keep this website up and running. 42 inch stamped deck. Hi Ryan, I too have a lot of leaves. When you increase the rpms to mowing speed the vibration goes away. It has a great engine, heavy-duty transmissions, and a great cutting deck. One more question: There is a hauler that can be purchased with the Ultima ZT2. I simply have lost all confidence in residential quality mowers after my previous experience. By the way it was a trade-in at a local dealer where it was originally purchased and serviced. I will not be towing with it. Ive used a California trimmer reel mower for the past 6 years, but want less maintenance and speed. Thoughts? They dont have enough traction and the center of gravity is too high. BTW, north coast California mowing May Oct. Then the rains come and mowing slows down substantially. Trust me all the compacts will slide into the ditch and most likely turn over. https://www.homedepot.com/p/Toro-42-in-22-5-HP-TimeCutter-Commercial-V-Twin-Gas-Dual-Hydrostatic-Zero-Turn-Riding-Mower-with-Smart-Speed-75742/310836498 I know i dont need anything crazy because ill be mowing up to an acre a week but i like nice things and always but more then i need. Nz is slowly importing a few US mowers. Let's get into the comparisons! I have narrowed the choices down to two, the Toro 74630 TimeCutter SS5000 (50") and the Cub Cadet 17WI2ACP056 50 in. Yard is pretty flat with a little slope to get down to that wooded area.. but i also want to ask u if its safe for the mower to cut back in that stuff. The mower frame and deck are fabricated from thick, 10-gauge . Theres no better model; it all rests on what youre seeking. Walker and Country Clipper. Just wondering if you know if and when Ariens will be having a sale or promotion going on? My terrain is hilly and bumpy with just a little bit of flat land. Its very easy to switch from mulch to bag to side discharge. Hello Paul. Scag has also been around for a long time and the larger mowers are very popular with landscape contractors. It will do just fine and last you a long time. Just tell your friends about Todaysmower.com and MovingSnow.com. Thanks! The Deere has the best cut in the industry but on your lawn, I doubt if you would see a difference between the Deere deck and the Cub Cadet. Toro Timecutter decks are also made of 10-gauge steel but unlike the Titan, are either fabricated or stamped and come in sizes of 34, 42, 50, 54, and 60-inches respectively. We are happy to help! I suggest getting the Cyclone with the dual-wheel casters and the electric start engine. Which one do you think would be more durable? Make sure you idler pulley moves freely and that it spins freely. Thats well worth the extra money. Do you have a suggestion for the engine choice, Toro twin 24.5 hp or Kohler 22hp? Toro Commercial V-Twin and single-cylinder engines are specifically created to deliver optimal performance by matching the torque curve of the engines to the needs of the Toro product they power. Think you figured that out. 5. Inasmuch as I know that Im going to buy a 42 steering wheel zero turn; my question is do you have any idea why the Toro SW4200 and the Exmark Front steering machines are no longer being made? This turned into long story long so again i really appreciate your time! Hi Tawanda, A good 42-inch zero-turn is a good size for your yard. Hi Paul, I have a 1 acre with about a 10 to 12 degree slope in the backyard. Hi Charles, No, They did not have any problems with the steering and transmissions. I forgot in my first question to ask you about the Husqvarna MZ61 with the Kawasaki engine. Paul, This will be my first zero turn. I guess I am torn between the Ariens Ikon 42 and the Cub ZT1 42. If you want the mower and need armrests here are the right ones: Cub Cadet Arm Rests. Hello Paul! You can easily disengage the blade easily with the help of a brake clutch. Ill list them in my opinion the best choices. Which models might you suggest? The decks just dont have the depth the commercial decks have to hold the grass and recut it well. That Cub did have the same exact engine. Thanks again in advance! Thanks Paul. They are not designed to cleanly cut tall overgrowth. Im looking at the Ariels and Cub Cadet zero turn mowers. Hi Rob, The Boulevards deck is definitely strong enough to step on it. There doesnt appear to be much difference between the two The Pro has slightly bigger transmission, 1 bigger rear tires and Kohler Confidant EFI Closed Loop EZT-740 engine with 12cc Hydro-Gear ZT 3400 transmission with charge pumps. As time goes by and my father in law and neighbor get older Ill be cutting probably in the 10 acre range. Hydraulic belt tensioners so your drive belt lasts 10 times longer than the other brands. Agri-Fab Sweeper. Have you done any testing with the Husqvarna or any other mower manufacturers? I've narrowed it to either the Ariens Ikon Xd 52 or Toro Timecutter 50. He can get parts for the Jonsered and many of the parts he has on the shelf for the Husqvarna tractors and ZTRs will fit. Lets get into it! Setting: Its as heavy-duty as many of the commercial machines. Hi Art, Good comment! 1, Walker Model R (new Model)42inch Kohler 7000 The toro has a slightly better warranty at 3yrs unlimited hours vs the Ariens at 3yrs . And it really helps to have an expert such as yourself to bounce thoughts off of. reviews and youtube clips indicate this thing can mow fast and stripe. My first choice for slopes is the Ariens IKON XD 52. I need something that will handle the cutting duties without leaving rows of grass clipping or mohawks. Also, Id consider the CC RZT42S. Paul a number of years ago I purchased a Craftsman 42 inch mower (T2200) that you recommended. It is the most expensive of the mower I discuss. It is fairly rough ground and has two moderately steep areas. The ZT 3400 is the industry standard commercial tranny and youll find it on most commercial ZTRs in the $8000-$14,000 price range. My local Exmark dealer has hundreds of them out mowing lawns every day and the owners love the engine. My personal first choice is always a stand-on but I dont recommend stand-on mowers smaller than 40 inches. Hi Travis, The armrests are worth every penny! Im not clear about whether theyre planning to stock any of the new Apex models, but if its the same as the ZT HD then I dont really see why they would. Also do i need 2 worry about popping one of those front tires with the small stumps i have around? I want the look of a nicely manicured lawn. The Ariens has slightly larger rear tires for better traction and an offset deck so you can trim right around smaller obstacles like telephone poles. Everything opens up for cleaning, inspection and belt replacement. The best mower in that price range for ride, cut quality, cutting speed and long life components including the drive belts is the Exmark Lazer Z X-Series. Its a heavy-duty mower but the Deere will have more options available like baggers and mulch kits. Was curious your thoughts on a Bad Boy MZ Magnum 54 vs brands in your top models? Its a nicety, not a necessity. The Ryobi is holding up well and the owners like it a lot. My dad runs an old Wheel Horse, never had to rebuild anything on the motor or gear box and its going on 33 years. Any thoughts on that machine? The mowers are built exceptionally for different purposes hence the reason why I cant single out a model that is the better one. But I do know the mother of one of the Cub Cadet higher up personnel that could probably run interference for me on warranty repairs if need be. Hey everyone, im in the market for my first zero turn and I'm looking for some opinions. Otherwise, if youre seeking to only mow your yard that of course, wouldnt need you and your mowers attention every day, the Timecutter will do just fine plus its less expensive! I would need about 20 hours per year out of the machine, at about 45 minutes per cut. Toro TimeCutter MX Series MX5050 Zero Turn Rider 74774 (50): $3200 This ensures maximum comfort and a reduced level of fatigue for you after a hectic day. Ive also always been partial to the 60-inch deck. In my opinion, the Toro deck cuts just as well and is actually a little more durable with the bullnose bumper along the front edge. I took your advice in May and bought a TORO Timecutter 60 cut and the three speed are perfect. Paul. Most components are identical but the decks are slightly different. I hate that it doesnt have armrests, but the red/black color is sweet. Toro TimeCutter HD with MyRIDE with the Kawasaki 48. Homeowners like their Spartan mowers a lot. Has variable speed. Your review the other day was spot on. A lot of deck designs have a harmonic vibration at certain speeds. Your site here and responsiveness is some of the best I have seen in my researching journey. Thanks Paul. If you only have 10-degree slopes and you are not planning on pulling a lot of heavier loads with the ZTR then Id stay with the Ariens IKON XD or the Gravely ZT X. Hi Rob, each one has its advantages but they are so close in cut quality and durability the only real difference is the dealer support. Does your boss understand that lawn mowers need regular maintenance? Mow the lawn with the deck raised up a notch or two higher and you should get more life. The Intek is a good motor for someone who has a flat lawn and mows about 1/2 acre a week, but for what you want to mow it will last long enough to just get past the warranty. Toro with its smart speed control allows you to pull much heavier loads than all the other ZTRs. With the warmer weather and the rain weve had in North Texas, especially the last and projected next week, I have rye thats about a foot tall right now! I think you made my decision much easier! It is more on the lush side in the spring and fall. Best in class seating( bad back) and have 4 to 5 acres to mower. He suggested to try and find something that was like a residential/commercial type hybrid. -I have a Ferris IS3200 mower with wide cut. I have 2 1/2 acres and my Husky is 9 years old. Chews up small twigs from trees like nothing. Hi Jake, I like the Ariens better. We are looking for something with good construction and good cut with reasonable price point. option as I could buy two of those for the price of the Walker or Clipper, Decisions, decisions.. Hi Wilson, Yes, Bradley is a hard sell to many people because he has never set up a larger dealer network. Thanks. I can get 10% off at HD or Lowes so I plan to buy from one of them unless I find other deals I cant pass up. The Toros and the ZT X use the ZT2200 transmissions. You didnt say how much you are mowing but for example, 10 acres 25 times a year is only 60-75 hours a year. Power: 22.5 hp**. I cant tell if this mower is any less stable on the hillside. Ask him about any specials he has coming up because a lot of dealers will have a spring special (i.e. How fast can this machine actually mow, your estimation? Husqvarna Lawn Garden Tractors | 11 New Improved Models! Any advice you can give on each for a residential lawn? Can you tell if your local Home Depot uses an authorized John Dear or Toro dealer for assembly, setup, delivery for their ZTs? These start around $2500 and the good Cub Cadet and Husqvarna models are around $3200. Hi Robert, On paper, the Liberty Z meets all the criteria for a good $4500 ZTR. Which One Is Best For You? Its been more helpful than you know! That is an easy adjustment and found on page 20 of the operators manual. My Exmark Quest 42 which is the same as the MX4250 has the ZT-2200. How do you feel about the Bradley and the way I am leaning? Probably not but if your property is rough, has slopes greater than 10 degrees, you want to get done as quickly as possible or you have teenagers who are learning to use a zero-turn then it is worth moving up to the XT2. The seat is easy to move with just two knobs under the seat. I enjoy mowing the yard and do so often. I personally dont like baggers because they are big, bulky, and hard to store so I mulch the leaves and then pick up whats left with a high-speed sweeper. What are your suggestions for my yard .35 acres, flat land, no trees in the back but I do have 3 in the front and on the side. What Im looking for: Reliability, ease of maintenance, attaching and detaching bagging and mulching kit, cut, easy to handle, one user, 42 deck, budget around $3k and willing to spend around $1k for accessories (mulch kit and bag) Being a small yards I doubt I would benefit much from features or comfort so thats not important. Please wish me and my wallet luck! I was suggested to get a zero turn with steering wheel but I am hearing those are being discontinued and then another dealer told me to get the lap bars. With todays ethanol-blended fuel you need a gas can that seals tight. And Im perfectly happy to buy the ZT HD instead; I just hadnt really had Gravely on my radar before I talked with them. I prefer the 50 inch model because the deck sticks out the side farther which makes it easier to trim around stuff. Calculator tells me (for my peace of mind) that I ought to be looking in the 50-60 range if I dont want to spend much more than a few hours doing my lawn every other weekend. My John Deere riding mower had issues with grass building up under the deck, but its 2004 model. If you dont have the experience get a 36-44 inch walk-behind and use that until you get the experience. Hustler fixed all the issues with the Raptor series with the new XD. The zero-turn capabilities and 50-inch cutting deck make the Club Cadet Ultima ZT1 50 and the Toro Titan Zero Turn 50 tough contenders to get the job done. (see it here at the Home Depot) It will have the weight to give you great traction along the drainage ditch. Hi Paul, The alternative is the MX6050. If you use them with side discharge the work most of the time but if your grass is wet, long or the stringy (like some Fescues) they wont cut the grass into little pieces and throw it out the discharge. The Titan is considered high end residential, it is a "better" built unit. It will ruin your engine! Now, if you have no one around when you are mowing and have strict instructions with all the kids and adults in your neighborhood not to come on your yard when you are mowing you may try lifting the side discharge chute high enough so the grass clippings spread evenly. Once again thank you for all the help and insight into the ZTR world! Check it out here: Thank you for your prompt response. My neighbor let me try his Ferris IS600 to test the ride without actually mowing. Any suggestions? The cut doesnt look quite as good, and he cant follow the bed lines as well as before. 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